Anyone using open face puck holders?

Discussion in 'CNC Machines' started by Baldurbrau, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Baldurbrau

    Baldurbrau Member

    I cut on a Imes 650 and do mostly full arch full contour I have a couple of the holders on backorder but I'm told they are months out. Does anyone have any experience milling with an open face holder? Are the results A drastic improvement to embrasure depth? I'm considering modifiying one of my existing holders but wanted a little feed back first.
    Thank You !
  2. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    98mm disk fixture you are talking about?

    And then....what?
  3. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    If we change a fixture....then we also change the cad of that fixture the cam uses for collision detection. Advanced stuff.

    If we now have more freedom on one side or end or whatever you are talking about....them you may need to change max rotational limits set in cam and or the cnc controller as well.
  4. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    I made a fixture to hold half a 98mm disk.
    The other half is just hanging out there in space
  5. Baldurbrau

    Baldurbrau Member

    That's exactly what I'm talking about. Imes is working on them, I have a couple on order (months out) and I'm thinking about modifying one of my existing holders. I'm just wondering about the results . My re seller can help with the back end stuff. The goal is to get the mill to do some of the bench work I have to do green finishing.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  6. labwa

    labwa New Member

    I am looking at the same thing. We have two 650i mills and want to get more out of the b axis angle.
    Are you using the zero point clamp?
  7. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    Who is going to design the CAD file of the holder used by your CAM for collision?
    To represent the new shape of holder?

    You know how to do this?

    And, to extend your set limits in CNC software if necessary for increased angle?
    Same with CAM. There is probably a set limit for rotary max angle you need to change there too.

    We can do this, but only for SUM3d.

    Finding or making the actual disk holder is only 1/2 of the job needed to make this happen.
  8. leshi

    leshi Active Member

    I had a situation a year ago.
    The 650i had the limitations of the A-axis 30 degrees B-axis 25 degrees. I tried to draw my Holder, change the limit in sum3d and tested the limit in the machine. The task was to increase the B axis to 30 degrees. In my opinion, this machine can actually take such an angle without collisions. The tests showed that the CNC limit is more than 30 degrees and the machine did not give an error when milling tests at 30 degrees and there were no collisions. I started to milling things like this, but it turned out that this limit works inadequately. Somewhere at 28 degrees in unknown cases, the machine stops and an error appears.

    We knew how to change the angle limit in the CNC, but deliberately do not do this without the approval of IMES. After we described the situation, they took my actions with anger. The answer is that you need to touch something that is not necessary, they said 25 maximum, it means 25 maximum.

    I think the situation has already changed in a year, because the customer request for the limit of the B axis is 30 degrees at 650i.
    DMC likes this.
  9. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    yeah....This is a Four part answer to One problem.

    1) the actual holder is needed
    2) CAD file of the new holder for CAM simulation
    3) Change rotary limits and other ? in CNC Controller parameters
    4) Change rotary limits in your CAM software

    I prefer to control all aspects of my milling machine, CAM, and software and we do just that.
    It takes time and money to learn these things. Beyond what most "Dental" resellers provide or know.
    leshi likes this.
  10. labwa

    labwa New Member

    Machine limit adjustments are never going to make imes happy. Ultimately That is not going to stop me from doing it. They are not happy most days anyway. I service and fix the mills myself I'll wear the problems if there are any. But it is not so risky if it is done carefully.
    As for the CAM ill get the cad file drawn up for machining and use that in the CAM, get Luigi to run his eyes over the settings and strategies. Whats the worst that can happen? A big crash and breaking everything? Redundancy is key right Scott! Nice pickup on the last mill btw. cheap!!
    leshi and DMC like this.
  11. leshi

    leshi Active Member

    I think that the reason for the errors of the machine during the milling at an angle. The larger the angle, the greater the error. On the A axis, there is no such problem, but on the B axis we are looking for offset. The offset found does not give 100% accuracy correction of our error.

    This in my opinion is the reason why do not increase the angle.
  12. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix

    Maybe you are at limit of Z axis going up or down, and this was the error?

    Short tool and spindle going down? Or long tool and spindle cannot go high enough for retraction and jump to another pocket to machine. SUM3d has this movement setup in a couple places. The jump from One tooth to another tooth and spindle go up XXmm to clear the disk and safe movement. Usually this is higher than really necessary.

    If you experience spindle (Z axis) hitting limit trying to go down to part (with extreme angle pointed down) AND you have a short tool...then go find a longer tool! lol

    Maybe require adjusting the range of acceptable tools, and changing tool measurement macros to expect a longer tool?

    It gets quite complicated to get everything in order for more rotary angles!
    Need to consider everything
  13. cadfan

    cadfan Moderator Staff Member

    Even with a open face puck holder right side is critical less free space try via jog ?! with a longer puck holder which lifts the shit up not sure Z is enough ??

  14. leshi

    leshi Active Member

    I checked the Z axis. Several nc files were created with the limiting angles and Z levels. The machine did not give errors to these files.

    About Clearance in Sum3d. Did not have a problem with that.

    The tools were checked.

    I'll try to explain it differently. In the CNC there was a limit on the angle, which was ignored during my tests. For this year we have updated the program several times and changed the limit. No problem with that today.
    Скриншот 14-11-2017 171936.jpg Скриншот 14-11-2017 172550.jpg
  15. DMC

    DMC In the Matrix


    One of my older setups...Everything is different today.

    1/2 disk holder.
    cadfan likes this.
  16. leshi

    leshi Active Member

    I apologize for writing a bit off topic
  17. labwa

    labwa New Member

    Yeah the Z gets down low enough. I'll take a photo and post today without the holder in.

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